influences there before DLM turned up, continued.
Posted by: lesley
Post title: influences there before DLM turned up, continued.
Date: 10/12/2025, 04:42:45
Original URL: Click here (However, the link may be stale.)
Dunno why exactly but Hesse has stuck in my mind from our recent conversation and caused me to deconstruct further - 

My response to seeing a Hesse book was attraction, but when I read a few paragraphs I was befuddled by the dense prose but thought it was important to read it and I nearly made it to the end.

I lived out in the country, near Salisbury by the time I was a teenager.  In order to get a pair of jeans I had to go to the gentleman's outfitters in town.  Then I went to the army & navy disposal store to get a t shirt with some buttons at the neck and then I went to the chemist to get one of those little disks of fabric dye - Dylon, grapevine colour (shade of light purple).  If I'd needed glasses I would have wanted the same as John Lennon wore - granny glasses you could get for free).

There was a new shop opened up in Salisbury Close (ie the gated area round the cathedral) and I thought it was fascinating with all the exotic things from India, I bought a little elephant carved out of sandalwood, I still have it.

So, well the Hesse book had its publishers behind it but the rest of the stuff?  No internet, no influencers, no advertising campaigns. 

I know Andy Warhol's can of Campbell's soup has achieved lasting fame but back then, no it was old hat, stuff from the 60's and our thoughts had turned to the East.  oh and American Levi jeans.

There was a teenage grapevine wasn't there.  And then I remember there being a premie grapevine which would get transcended by orders barked from above or used to spread unofficial comments like everybody gives money to EV but who is there to give 'Maharaji' money for his costs, and so on.  

not sure if the trend-setting grapevine still goes on among young people but it does seem pretty hard wired to me.

Re: influences there before DLM turned up, continued.
Posted by: lakeshore
Post title: Re: influences there before DLM turned up, continued.
Date: 10/12/2025, 19:00:55
Original URL: Click here (However, the link may be stale.)
I never read Hesse... or much of anything else. I'm not proud of that. I might've had a reading disorder. While reading, my attention would drift so quickly that I found myself reading sentences, paragraphs and even pages over and over again because I completely missed whatever I just read. It might've begun in grade school when a teacher made me stand while she shamed me mercilessly in front of the entire class for my inability to grasp a new trend called speed reading... staring at a paragraph for a few seconds and somehow managing to glean the gist of it before moving on to the next.

Nevertheless, I eventually devoured (not literally) newspapers, especially the New York Times when I was commuting, and I paid close attention to the writing styles of the op-ed columnists. And since Flying Solo has always been a vegetarian and me not so much after the ashrams closed (until recent years... mostly), I always had a newspaper to read when I ate at restaurants by myself after work to decompress and also because she was disgusted every time I brought meat into the house.

As for writing, I barely know the difference between nouns, verbs, adverbs, adjectives and so on. After graduating from high school as a runaway, I enrolled at a community college to use its autobody shop to fix the dents in my car and, well, meet girls. English 101 was mandatory and I almost flunked because of this thing they tried to teach called parsing sentences. Even worse, the two I met separately and independently of each other turned out to be roommates.

As if roommates wasn't bad enough, the whole endeavor backfired miserably when I saw a poster of sixteen-year-old Guru Maharaji standing beneath a graphically produced halo on a bulletin board in a lobby: "The energy that moves the atom moves you. Come and realize." A week or so later, my best friend repeated something he heard in that teenage trend setting grapevine you mentioned: "They say you can crawl across the entire country on your hands and knees to get there, but a satguru is like a jet."

Like doing my homework after impatiently or impulsively making a big purchase, I dove into a few books after receiving Knowledge just to be sure. Sure enough, through the prism of Knowledge, they all proved it. Yup. Perfect Master. Somewhere beyond all reason... wherever just one spark of that Knowledge goes... same thing they all revealed. No doubt. Be Here Now, The Aquarian Gospel (quoted in my Knowledge Session), a few assorted swami books and a real corker entitled The Impersonal Life all confirmed it. Mahatma Trivinanand a/k/a stoneface, Prabhupada... all looked the same to me. The sharpest tool, I was not! And so I had no problem whatsoever coming with an empty cup and the heart of a child along with the naivete of an immature teenager.

Why would I question anything? Just like that other one, Charananand, sang: I'd found my true home again. It all fit together perfectly, timing and everything. That's when the other grapevine you mentioned enveloped me like the sticky fibers of a spider web: the top-down dissemination of "listening to catch his orders" agya and the ashram/community structure of service and nightly satsang in conjunction with Prem Rawat's relentless mocking, berating and belittling... twice daily Arti, pranam-ing, charanamrit and occasional table scraps. Of course I realized I was nothing without him... a beggar... weak and ignorant and filled with the impurities of this world. Straight out of my Knowledge packet:

Never delay in attending satsang.
Never leave room for doubt in your mind.
Constantly meditate and remember the Holy Name.
Never put off until tomorrow what you can do today.
Always have faith in God.

I mean, what was left to think about? Life on autopilot. Deck chairs on the captain's boat. Heaven for the brain dead. A feeling alright because that's all that was left... on a good day. And if you felt nothing, well, you know: the sun is still shining behind the clouds. Or wait for the muck your mind kicked-up to settle. Whatever. He dished it out and I lapped it up.

Intellectually and emotionally stunted for thirty-six years because I practiced Knowledge exactly as taught by Prem Rawat to the best of my ability... sincerely, surrendered, with an empty cup and the heart of a child the wholly dependent and child-like state he reduced me to... from a "when you sing Arti, mean it" level of devotion to the squeaky-clean facade of the PEP trap that he and his duplicitous devotees hide behind and use to conceal their ulterior motives.

And yet, no regrets or bitterness because sometimes that's what it takes to know what it's like to feel grounded and down-to-earth (ups and downs and all) as opposed to the cult's version of "clear" and "conscious." 

Re: influences there before DLM turned up, continued.
Posted by: 13
Post title: Re: influences there before DLM turned up, continued.
Date: 10/13/2025, 00:33:40
Original URL: Click here (However, the link may be stale.)
There doesn't seem to be much mystery about how and why we walked into a cult and got stuck there. Our naivety looking back is very plain to see. All we knew is what we knew so far, and it wasn't enough to look at it all with sufficient critical distance.

Add to the fact of our limited philosophical and critical abilities that our brains start reorganising themselves into a shape that is more constant through adulthood in our teens, and the process doesn't end till we're 25. We were thinking with soup for brains.

It's more amazing that we got out of the cult than we fell in. Like a fish going, wait, what is this stuff I'm swimming in?

It's strange to think you were ridiculed for your literary skills Lakeshore! The head mistress of my daughter's primary school was shocked when we told her we were thinking of moving house so my daughter could go to a school more in keeping with her academic abilities. She struggled to express without causing offence that in her opinion, our daughter was thick! She currently does really high faluting stuff with DNA research and has almost completed enough research papers to get herself a Ph.D. I expect we all have tales of being put down by teachers, and that and the general lack of being taught critical thinking skills didn't do us any favours.

I could dish out blame left, right and centre for the mess of it all and the waste, but like Aunt Bea, I'm not convinced any of us really have any free will anyway. More like balls in a pinball machine, but with some ability to reflect on what just happened.

Re: influences there before DLM turned up, continued.
Posted by: lesley
Post title: Re: influences there before DLM turned up, continued.
Date: 10/13/2025, 13:05:35
Original URL: Click here (However, the link may be stale.)
I first heard about brain waves in my 40's - in my studio recovering from cult involvement (and my marriage) I would put the radio onto the ABC and it would have music (that's how I heard Kurt Cobain singing, having completely missed Nirvana while in the cult) and there would be interviews, such interesting stuff.

So one of these interviews was some scientist talking about a series of brain images where it could be seen that there was a process where it is lighting up from the base to the front of the brain over a period from the beginning of puberty to 25.  And in the process the physicality of the brain is it is becoming more wrinkled, ie more space to store information.

So I found this fascinating, brain imaging was pretty new back then and I have been waiting for some scientist to say it is an ongoing process all our lives.  Back then I was teaching swimming so very aware of the ten year olds - wonderful age isn't it, all of a sudden they are so grown up and can be asked for help and trusted to do things.  Then comes puberty and yes 25 is the next window of clarity.  Then comes 40 and we are back at the base of our brain again - another wave of wrinkling and then again we are back at the base at 70 - that second childhood they talked about.

The midlife crisis, ie where I am thinking from or conscious of is back at the base again and for me it was a deep pit - I was in a lot of trouble in my life, between the efforts of my then guru and my then husband, the top of my brain was so full of lies there is no ground left beneath my feet and now I have plummeted into a deep dark place, a point of despair and only one direction to go - back the way I came, a climb up the dark rocky stairs.

When I turned 69 I said I'm glad I'm 69 because at least it's not 70.  But then when I turned 70 it all got young again, how I felt, it's been golden and fun like having a second childhood is right.

and my feeling is well good about myself for taking on board the information there at the base of my brain, accepting the truth of the matter as reality not a nightmare to run from, and cleaning house.

It looks like as I get older I'll get more responsible again and we can all see what a rotten mess we're in and yet I am coming to think, in this ageing process there is something to look forward to.  

:-) Soup for brains
Posted by: lakeshore
Post title: :-) Soup for brains
Date: 10/14/2025, 09:25:49
Original URL: Click here (However, the link may be stale.)

Some folks might think posting here is all fun and games. Not for me. I often second guess myself and regret hitting the "Post!" button:

• Publicly expressing such harsh criticism, bordering on vitriolic, couldn't be further from my nature.
• It's not about me even though I often write about myself and my experiences in the cult.
• My tendency to exaggerate ever so slightly at times requires vigilance to keep things within the bounds of accuracy and proportionality.
• I'm in no position to judge others. Yet, as necessary as it is to separate the words and actions of premies under the influence of Prem Rawat, typically in defense of him, from his grip on them, sometimes their words and actions scream for it.
• Then there's this tiny little issue of being among the +/- .02%* of former followers who've spoken out publicly against Prem Rawat in the face of all the practicing premies, dignitaries and other officials who've honored Prem in various ways, and administrators who've invited PEP into their institutions, etc. ... all over the world.

Given those and other parameters, limitations and guardrails, I suppose second guessing myself is a healthy sign of sanity and still being tethered to my conscience and moral compass. My point in mentioning all this is that I almost didn't make that reply to Lesley. What tipped the scale was the thought that what I say doesn't matter anyway. What matters is that it might serve as a catalyst for a remarkable or even an extraordinary reply, which both you and Lesley came through with.

"There doesn't seem to be much mystery about how and why we walked into a cult and got stuck there. Our naivety looking back is very plain to see. All we knew is what we knew so far, and it wasn't enough to look at it all with sufficient critical distance."

After all these years and except for your recent posts, I've seldom heard it spelled-out so neatly.

"We were thinking with soup for brains... It's more amazing that we got out of the cult than we fell in. Like a fish going, wait, what is this stuff I'm swimming in?"

I can hear the lurkers shouting "Water is where fish belong!" as they equate it with and embrace their all-encompassing "connection" to Prem Rawat and Knowledge, which only reinforces your perfect analogy.

Then you ended with "... like Aunt Bea, I'm not convinced any of us really have any free will anyway. More like balls in a pinball machine, but with some ability to reflect on what just happened."

As I contemplate this, I'm keenly aware that as things happen, the vast majority of the time I react as instantaneously, instinctively and even involuntarily as Daniel Kahneman pointed out in his book. Absolutely no time to pause, reflect and exercise what might be viewed as premeditated free will... much like balls in a pinball machine. To live otherwise would be like living in a frozen state of paralysis and might even get you committed. Even premeditated actions are governed by unpredictable reactions, reactions to reactions and ever changing circumstances out of our control. Multiply that by everything and it's a bit disconcerting that what you suggest may very well be true!

• timing and circumstances of birth and death
• inability to see or predict the future
• unanticipated consequences leading to unanticipated consequences
• onset of disease 
• good luck versus bad luck if there's any such thing as luck

The arguments against free will are profound and I'm sure there are authors (in recent posts) who spell it out in compelling ways. Uncertainty, fear, anxiety and vulnerability are fodder for charlatans like Prem. And speaking of lurkers, don't give me that "conscious" crap. I can't stand that word in the context of this cult... the miasma of some lofty, smug, condescending and superior pretense that does nothing but invisibly separate people. Did I mention it's crap?

I wanted to joke about "soup for brains," not only because it sounds funny, but also because that's not the way I've heard it expressed. Then it occurred to me that soup is another perfect analogy because it's an amalgamation of necessary and essential ingredients whereas the other is not.

I hope your daughter gets her Ph. D. Family get-togethers must be extra-special for you.

* Very loosely calculated as perhaps 200 former followers who've spoken out publicly over the years on various platforms, out of perhaps 1,000,000 premies and advocates, including India. I would gladly defer to Prembio or anyone else.

Re: influences there before DLM turned up, continued.
Posted by: lesley
Post title: Re: influences there before DLM turned up, continued.
Date: 10/13/2025, 03:23:46
Original URL: Click here (However, the link may be stale.)
Yes, I think 13 is right - it's not so surprising we got caught by a cult, what's more surprising is we got out - 'like a fish questioning the water it's swimming in' - I really liked that line.  

It has turned out that so many premies are still stuck in it.  And I thought when I left that my friends would not be far behind, but it didn't happen.

Lakeshore, I remember something similar about reading in England too, fortunately we had a good teacher at primary school and she would never have shamed anyone let alone insist we learn some newfangled thing - she gave me the New Maths book and asked me to do it and report back to her while she stuck with the basics with the class.  I did the whole syllabus in a few weeks, said whatever I did to her, I don't remember, it was fun doing it but it left me thinking where was it going as it seemed to be solely based in thinking why do we have to count to the power of ten when we could be counting to the power of eight or whatever.  And that was it, just exercise after exercise with bubbles with numbers of blobs in them.  New maths quietly disappeared. 

Actually come to think of it, right near the beginning of primary school we had a different teacher, and he was old school and drilled us in the times tables.  He scared me so much, I still go to pieces over my 7 and 8 times tables.  And that's despite the new age maths!

I was just like you, it never occurred to me to question what I was told.  Well, I must have made some attempt to evaluate it because I remember reading the leaflet and thinking if 3 million people in London believe in Guru Maharaj Ji it has to be true.  omg.  Not the sharpest tool either.

And you're right, the mental damage is horrendous, it's not just the impact it had on our lives, it's the loss of self companionship - all of a sudden you've got god between you and you.  and if that's not bad enough while one half of your mind has been taken over by their agenda, the other half of your mind, which might help you find your way out, is being demonised.  

And this is happening all over the place.  scary isn't it.

I know there's this that or the other, but it's here, here's where I find the best company.  Even Mr Darko Wuffles doesn't mind me saying that.  

Re: influences there before DLM turned up, continued.
Posted by: Susan
Post title: Re: influences there before DLM turned up, continued.
Date: 10/14/2025, 09:10:20
Original URL: Click here (However, the link may be stale.)
This morning this article on cult recovery touches on many of these themes.


I can't remember every book I read before age 13 and I do believe my joining and at the time it felt like a choice and not forced- only a very irresponsible introduction by my very odd stepfather. 

Before Prem Rawat I read The Chronicles of Narnia, all about Dolphins, the Andromeda Strain…

It was only after the cult I read Siddhartha, and like any good Premie it was just a perfect master story to me. And Star Wars was a movie that was secretly about knowledge. How could a non premie write that? Wow Lila. 

I had just started 8th grade and was very upset I had to change schools because we had moved across a border to live in a nicer apartment. They made me use my legal name, instead of my stepfathers last name, and to move my mom had rehomed our beloved dog. Pepper and I was really not happy at all. Her decisions made tons of
sense, but the impact on me made me ripe for it all. As I have said, I went from Partridge Family posters one year to Rawat Family posters the next.

Re: influences there before DLM turned up, continued.
Posted by: lakeshore
Post title: Re: influences there before DLM turned up, continued.
Date: 10/14/2025, 13:14:49
Original URL: Click here (However, the link may be stale.)
Seems like we weren't that far apart. I went from the Monkees to Jimi Hendrix, et al practically overnight, and from Hendrix to the Anand Band and foot kissing just as quickly. Talk about selling out! And we had a dog named Pepper at the time. 

Regarding your post below, I forgot to mention J.L. Seagull and another premie favorite entitled The Caterpillar Pillar that somehow got special dispensation from the ashram book ban and became required reading.

Re: influences there before DLM turned up, continued.
Posted by: Susan
Post title: Re: influences there before DLM turned up, continued.
Date: 10/14/2025, 09:31:45
Original URL: Click here (However, the link may be stale.)
Great writing and sad stuff.

Cruel teacher - making you stand in front of class. 

You sure were ripe for it.

The book thing was the same for me. All the Premie favorites, Stranger in a Strange Land, Jonathan Livingston Seagull, Siddhartha, Be Here Now… all through an already "He's here and he's in a human body" lens.

I was luckier in the grammar department and while I think we did have to diagram sentences I attribute the best learning to Mad Libs. And times tables to songs on a Disney record. 

I absolutely wish I had never heard of Prem Rawat. 

Re: influences there before DLM turned up, continued.
Posted by: lesley
Post title: Re: influences there before DLM turned up, continued.
Date: 10/14/2025, 16:48:40
Original URL: Click here (However, the link may be stale.)
"I absolutely wish I'd never heard of Prem Rawat"

same here!  

On the upside, I remember, with that loss of my premie beliefs, feeling like I'd dropped through the floor into the basement and thinking I might as well kick all the pillars while I am down here and see what's left standing.

And how invaluable that has been, that's 25 and a half years ago now and meanwhile my premie friends have been facing life equipped with a breath meditation and Mr EIYDHIWNAY Rawat. 

Hopefully they've found good ways to handle it.

Still I know from watching my mum that her religious beliefs got in the way to such a point that she needed to dump them in her 80's and she felt so relieved to be back to normal.