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A practicing premie asked me to submit this interesting perspective
 Posted by: Pat W
 Date: 01/22/2005, 04:23:24
 Original URL: Click here (However, the link may be stale.)
My friend emailed me this, requesting to remain anonymous:

Pat, here is my anonymous "premie response" to "premie response" 's post.

Dear PR, as a practicing premie, I have no wish to join this forum, nor do†I wish to regale you with "an irrelevant quote", or a "transparent attempt to change the subject", nor offer you "irrelevant criticism" in reponse to your recent post.†But through my longtime friend PatW, with whom†I have had many a meaningful, if juxtaposed dialogue over the years, I feel I must respond to you on nothing more than a 'point of information' .

No doubt M's public persona has evolved over the years, and no doubt this is a good thing. Nonetheless we premies, especially oldtimers, are in my view, subject to idealised thinking when it comes to M, to the point of accepting the rewriting of our past as if it never happened. I have long found this worrying, and therefore, I offer you this response: It is†NOT "only exes" who remember M claiming to be, if not "God" then "greater than human". Granted, the "Guru is greater than God" quote, originating as you say from Kabir,†has a 'plausible' explanation when †based on an understanding of Indian spirituality and culture. But to an impressionable, rudderless 21 year old in the early 70's this quote, offered as it was with no such explanation, was a powerful contributor to the mindset which prompted my huge†surrender to this "human being",†for whom†we gave up our homes, inheritances, careers, educations, marriages, the best years of our lives, often under serious peer pressure from M's most trusted (and feared,in some cases!) "honchos"†.

Let†me therefore draw your attention to the quote included in Hilltop's post "M has gone haywire..." which states:

†"To be here as an individual, and yet to be able to be next to that person who is everything , in which everything is, and he is in everything. Guru Maharaji. The Lord. All-powerful."†From the accompanying picture I'd say this quote was late 70s, by the way.

†Yes, you can split hairs here and say"... but he is not saying "I am God" or using the "G" word". To which I say, ok, he is not SAYING that , but he is, most effectively STATING as much, and again, the effect of such words on me,was powerful. I bought it, hook line and sinker.(or is that "hook, sink, and liner?")

†I'm not trying to be divisive here, nor pour scorn on anyone, least of all M, but I feel strongly there is a need for acceptance here. This forum is, as I see it,†set up by people who , for whatever reason, became dissillusioned, disenchanted , and are seeking 'closure'†. Their†quest is not helped by being branded a "hate group" by EV, and†I agree with Glen Whittaker when he recently told me "we should be building bridges, not walls." Therefore, let us not be afraid of the facts, as they are, because if†something is real it can withstand a challenge.

†It is also true that M said, circa 2000: "People ask me am†I a prophet or a messiah.†I smile and say 'No I am just a human being but if you want†peace inside yourself I can help."†

So, thank God(!),†he has moved on, it would appear. But denial that it WAS different is not healthy. Look, we are all, including M, subject to our conditioning as a child. I was brought up to believe I was a a no-hoper, with no self-esteem. It took 7 years in therapy in my 40's†to even begin to rewrite my inner tapes and believe otherwise about myself.†I do believe M was raised in a culture that gave him enormous self belief in his "divine power". That must be awfully difficult to put into perspective, and function with any normality. Imagine! I'm sure that is at the root of his denial of the past, which I HAVE witnessed, fairly recently, and it made for uncomfortable viewing.

†You see, to accept him as 'Lord of the Universe' was easy.†One simply gave up any responsibility for one's own life, dreams or††thought processes. Whereas to accept him as a human being, with flaws, subject to stresses and strains, temptations etc. is far harder, because†we have to take responibility, and can no longer rely on our 'image' of perfection in the One whom we needed to keep on a pedestal. That image†becomes irrevocably flawed. But it is only as a "human" that any of us can be†assessed. And then we can make an informed, proactive choice, to accept, or not, this person's gift, and to see that gift in the context of its being offered by a mere mortal, like you and I. Changes the picture drastically. And for the better I say. Brings it down to earth. But denial is NEVER the way to go. See how respected Bill Clinton remains in the American psyche because he admits and apologises for his errors? The man is not born , not even M, who doesn't make mistakes.

†Look at†Van Morrison, the singer. I have it on first hand authority from people once †in his employ, that he is not, shall we say, the easiest, or nicest †person to be around (to put it politely!!) but if anyone offered me a ticket to his show, i'd be there!

†So, tell it like it IS, I say. As Jesus said "Know the truth and the truth shall set you free."

"My blessings to all premies, ex-premies, humans without label, ducks, bears, snakes, buffalo, horses, mangoes,and all creatures involved in the beautiful process of life."†

The premie disconnect...
 Posted by: Cynthia
 Date: 01/22/2005, 05:10:03
 Original URL: Click here (However, the link may be stale.)

I always find it interesting when premies try to explain away (airbrush out) the Maharaji's past and my past with Maharaji.  "Let's not look at that!  Look at this!"  "Don't say that about your past with Maharaji, let's build bridges!" 

I find it amazingly convenient especially when EV uses the worst possible methods to discredit ex-premies by calling them a hate-group (and spamming internet with that allegation without any foundation of truth), calling ex-premies criminal and crazy for stating the truth about their past in the cult, and the standard cult apologia:  disgruntled former employees and apostates.

My question to any premie about Maharaji's statements about his divinity (or denial of it) is this:

What do you think Maharji meant when he said this (note that this is a quote right off of TPRF's website in the "Conversations with Prem Rawat" page):

Q: A person in your position will be described or defined by many people. How would you describe yourself?

PR: Iím me. I am a human being. Many things have been said about me. Many of these things have come from peopleís own emotions, good or bad. Iím proud to be a human being. I am very happy that I have this life. I am also happy that I can feel joy and pain like everyone else. Iím happy being me. Some people would love to put labels on me, but I am just me.

What I'm particularly interested in, is what exactly does Rawat mean when he says, "I'm proud to be a human being."

As opposed to what???  I haven't been able to get an anwer out of any premie to this simple question.

Oh those labels!  As for Glen Whittaker, well I've got David V. Barrett's book The New Believers sitting right next to me here where Whittaker is quoted in 1995.  But, that's a whole other thread.


Unlit Matches
 Posted by: Duh!
 Date: 01/23/2005, 13:53:45
 Original URL: Click here (However, the link may be stale.)
Unlit Matches. That's how Rawat characterizes his critics. Never mind that some of his biggest critics were those who were his closest aides and confidantes for decades! Obviously, this premie has had to jump through quite a lot of mental gymnastics in order to keep following and having faith in Rawat.

I submit that it is one thing for a long time premie to have to come to terms with Rawat being a mere mortal and another to have to also accept and explain away how Rawat cannot admit to nor take proper responsibiilty for his past. Make no mistake, Rawat condones the approach taken by EV regarding his detractors. No decision is made without his approval. The "hate group" labelling and full on revisionism is exactly why Rawat is not deserving of respect or leeway regarding early childhood conditioning. Far too much time has elapsed for that kind of leniency.

What we are left with is a man who has gotten fat and obscenely wealthy off of the backs of thousands of people who made enormous sacrifices (like this premie himself) based upon Rawat's Perfect Con-Game. And this has gone on long after the man came down from under the Krishna crown. There is no other explanation for this other than the fact that he values his own materialistic enrichment above the very lives of his followers!

The House of Rawat is built on chicanery, larceny, and moral bankruptcy. His PR machine may continue to pile up the civic awards but those that he has dismissed and tread upon will continue to be a thorn in his substantial back-side.

Re: A practicing premie asked me to submit this interesting perspective
 Posted by: Lexy
 Date: 01/22/2005, 08:10:13
 Original URL: Click here (However, the link may be stale.)

I would like to thank you " practising premie " for your interesting and often clear response. It is so nice to be able to communicate ( at last) on this forum with a premie who seems to be sincerely trying to find some kind of balanced argument and is neither mocking nor deliberately dishonest. A big THANKYOU for that.

I wonder why you don't directly post here ? My experience is that the Moderators are reliable and trustworthy when it comes to preserving any personal details....which,in fact, would only be your email address ,which does not have to include your name . I can understand that the prospect may be too daunting as there is always the possibility that even a reasoning and reasonable premie like yourself may be roughed up a little by some of the less sensitive veterans here. Pity. There is also the situation which I have never totally understood , where premies are treated as " guests " here which ,in practice, seems to mean that they are more easily ( and IMO sometimes unfairly ) ejected. I can understand that not everyone has Sanford's dogged resilience ! I should also like to endorse that we are NOT a group. I knew nobody when I first started posting a few months ago. I am my own independent self and I really do try to keep in touch with my own integrity and to learn from other contributors posts without feeling I necessarily have to agree with them , no matter how forcefully or repetitively they make their points of view.

Anyway, to get back to your argument...I started to have problems around here :-

"You see, to accept him as 'Lord of the Universe' was easy. One simply gave up any responsibility for one's own life, dreams or  thought processes. "

Easy ??? or Simple ??? ....."giving up responsibility for one's own life"...

This is what Guru Maharaj Ji called " Surrender". This was the most horrible decision I ever had to take. Independent me. Always did my own thing. Always thought my own thoughts.Went where I wanted and did what I wanted. After horrendous and ghastly mental-agonising ,I bought the whole f****ing trip. Surrender !!! That horrible word ! For me that was the cause of nearly all the pain and confusion. In my life I had always had to fight and be determined, and I couldn't get my head round " surrender ". I tried to and it made me  literally ill. Physically ill and mentally ill. Feisty me suddenly having to suppress my thoughts and true personality. UGH ! Excuse me while I vomit...and grieve for the vibrant nineteen year old that I was when that First premie dripped me that poisonous " SATSANG"........

I had loads more problems with that paragraph too , practising premie ,but I have to take a break as I suddenly feel full of rage about what happened.......

 "One simply gave up any responsibility for one's own life, dreams or  thought ..."   That's what you wrote practising it again ...

...what implications did " Surrender" have in your life? .....How far does denial go ??

I will try to continue this post later. Please don't think, practising  premie, that I am attacking you. I am simply trying to make sense of it  all and ,as you said ,find some kind of closure. 




wow it was great to read that-
 Posted by: Susan
 Date: 01/22/2005, 11:41:50
 Original URL: Click here (However, the link may be stale.)

Do you remember the Maharaji Responsibilty Campaign? That open letter was written to ask M to deal honestly with the past. I think truly, it would be amazing and healing if he did. I even find reading your words healing. There is something about being "gaslighted" as a friend of mine put it regarding the Jagdeo situation, that creates really deep wounds and makes it really hard to heal a situation. When I compare how I feel, on a gut level, reading Premie Response versus your letter it says it all about the only way out M could ever have in this world. When I read Premie Response's semantics about the word God- gosh it is crazy making, it is as if he is arguing about the truth of the color blue. It is just silly. We were all there. When I read your words, I feel like a real honest person is speaking. an authentic person. Because you are validating that the issues ex-premies have are real, it feels almost hopeful. I know I had this tiny bit of hope that M might really deal with our collective past honestly at one time. I think if he were to have at some point really joined us as a fellow human, on our level, and apologized, it could have diffused so much. I am not saying that many ex premies might not have remained angry, as they have a right to be. But if I ever felt M really said, "I'm sorry" and this is what happened, and your grievances are real. I would find that healing. Just me personally. I would like that.

I cannot help but think of my own personal problems with the Jagdeo situation. If the people I told were to have remembered, and validated what happened, and supported me- I would have so much less of an issue here. Horrible pedophiles exist. I see Jagdeo as USING the premie world. I see the premie world as a victim of Jagdeo . Certainly no one wanted this to happen. He used the unwitting adults and children. But how we were, and are treated for telling our stories? It is just awful. It is like being revictimized. There is some PR thing where they talk about how well they handled it all. It is such BS! Mr. Rawat has never acknowledged publicly what happened on his watch. And I know for certain victims were treated in cruel ways by premies in positions of authority since we spoke out as adults. My trouble is being left hung out to dry with my story of reporting it twice long ago- I am the only one who remembers. So painful.

I guess I am comparing that to the big picture of the revisionist history. You are right, bridges could be built with many of us. But people would have to be honest. Like you say. Playing games pretending what we all know is true didn't happen of course is going to encite people who have left to even more bitterness.

I must be honest that I cannot see how M really can lead anything given what he is and what he has allowed to happen. I cannot see a role for him as a legitimate leader or teacher of anything. I do not see any hope of his ever doing a Krishamurti and really stepping down. I can't see any person who really looks at the reality of M's life and history respecting him. Until he deals with his past honestly ( I don't think he ever will ) how can premies?

What I can respect is the people who are left have formed a bond, common history and identity over the years that may be hard to leave behind. When you say Glen Whitaker wants to build bridges I at first find that idea very cool. But how can you start that proccess without M on board? Is your collective identity as a group of "premies" dependant still on M's permission of what it is acceptable to say and feel? Can you reach out to us and validate us without betraying him, if he still denies the past-blames the mahatmas, the premies, everyone but himself?

Peace be with you.


5 Brighter than 1000 suns as seen through night vision goggles
4 As bright as the lights on Maharaji's jet
3 As bright as a 60 watt light bulb
2 As bright as a pile of burning ghi on a swinging arti tray
1 As bright as the inner light as seen by the third eye

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