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 Date: 02/11/2004, 13:50:24
 Posted by: Will
 Original URL: Click here (However, the link may be stale.)
 Subject: To Dr. Love

Dr. Love,

I have read your latest correspondence with Jim and others in which you express the hope of kindness between people "who have received a great gift."

You might find my reaction to be weird, but I feel that the whole problem with Prem Rawat's teaching is implied in your supposedly friendly expression.  Let me try to explain.

What is common between people tends to unite, and what distinquishes people from one another tends to divide.  Skin color is one example, a really silly one that causes untold amounts of useless problems.  Likewise, religion succeeds in harmonizing only those like-minded people who accept certain belief systems.  The antagonism between religious groups can, and often does, become horrendous.

What is the great gift that you speak of?  If it is the gift of life, then you have hope of achieving kindness and friendship independent of belief systems.  If you mean the gift of Knowledge, then there is little hope, because some people consider their own heart-feeling to be inherent rather than a gift from Prem Rawat, whereas others have accepted Rawat's teaching that the heart-feeling is a gift from him to his students.  The belief system espoused by Rawat is bound to get in the way of harmony, because, I believe, it is not a universal truth, or at least it is obviously not a truth that is universally acceptable.

If we can't agree with each other about this question of whether or not the knowledge of the heart is a gift from the guru, then at least we can be civil to each other.  All that is required for civility is to acknowledge where our difference lies, pinpoint it directly, and then accept the situation.   The difference between us is our reaction to the philosophy of life proposed by Prem Rawat.  Period.  On the level of the heart, we remain the same.  It really is that simple.

There is no need for your heart to be poisoned by correspondence or discussion with ex-premies.  The perspective of your intellect and the belief system you maintain might be challenged by such correspondence, but there is no danger for the heart to be poisoned, at least as far as I can tell.  I have never once felt my heart poisoned by premies or ex-premies.   Certainly the truth could never poison my heart.  Whatever hatred or unhonorable expression which comes from the catbox, I simply see the value or the lack of value in it.  I don't "take it to heart" so to speak.

If you feel that there is anything incorrect or unfair about, then please specify each instance one at a time.  So far, your general accusation of incorrectness and unfairness is not helpful because it is too general and too vague.

In the spirit of that which we share,


 Date: 02/11/2004, 14:17:06
 Posted by: NAR
 Original URL: Click here (However, the link may be stale.)
 Subject: Will, you are trying to talk sense.......
I don't think you have a snowball's chance of convincing them of ANYTHING. They "demand" that we provide prrof of allegations, yet they don't provide any independent proof of THEIR claims of liberation or whatever. The yardstick is different..... theirs is measuring in metric, yours is in inches/feet. Ya know what I mean?

Actually, I can provide independent scientific proof that "this love" or "that love" is nothing more than an attraction between individual and totally unconnected "bags of molecules." Nothing, absolutely nothing more than that! How can I say that? Becasue if you remove a particular portion of the brain..... you "feel" nothing at all. No emotions, at all. No love, no hate, no nothing! It is a PHYSICAL thing, limited to the PHYSICAL world. If it were any other, then damaging or removing that portion of the brain would have no effect on the "heart."

My challenge to THEM (premies) is to prove me wrong with independent, scientific PROOF of their claims of "knowledge." They are the ones making the outrageous, TOTALLY OUTRAGEOUS claims to experiencing something "special." I say, I don't believe them..... I can't trust their words anymore than they trust those of Michael Dettmers and all the others who are/were eyewitnesses to the fraud being perpetrated on the premie community. Why should I believe a single thing they say? Give me one good reason.

As to real, true love........ I say that Michael Dettmers exhibited more of that than any current "senior" PWK...... He admitted the fraud and he even admitted to having assisted in the duping (unbeknownst to him at the time)..... he apologized for it, too. THAT took guts! Now tell me, who loves us more? Who is actually experiencing THAT love? I say Michael Dettmers and all the others that told the truth, and "apologized" for their potential part in all of it, have more of it than anyone else that had anything to do with this .... ahem.... movement.

So, will Dr. Love provide the proof I seek? If not, I request that he stop propagating/supporting something that is an obvious fantasy. It doesn't do "this world" any good, whatsoever, to follow a pipe-dream. In fact, I suspect the world would be better off if everyone in it really acknowledged that "this life" is the only life you will ever get....... the fantasy of an afterworld has caused more death than just about anything I can imagine. Why? Because the "after" is so much more important than right NOW. Because the believers in a fantasy really think, without any proof whatsoever, that there IS an "after" and that they might get a second chance..... It's all bull, until someone (I don't care who) provides absolute proof of its existence in a form and way that ANYONE could understand.

That isn't so much to ask, is it?

 Date: 02/11/2004, 14:35:45
 Posted by: Cynthia
 Original URL: Click here (However, the link may be stale.)
 Subject: You're right, NAR...


Dr. Love already has quit the discussion because he didn't like the tone of the responses he got from Jim and Marshall.  As far as having any kind of exalted "experience" of capital "K" knowledge, that's a total mind-conditioned, indoctrinated belief-system that anyone gets if they put any trust in the Master Maharaji's mind-f**k.

You know, I was a premie who broke the law directly for Maharaji.  A small part of my mind and system of ethics popped out in objection at the time, but hell, I was getting darshan every day so I "just put it out of my mind."  The rationale at the time was "It's for the Lord -- he's not bound by laws."  That's what we sincerely believed and man, we were wrong.  I wonder how M would rationalize that one, now that he's proclaimed to be a mere mortal human being?  We spoke about this at DECA at the time.  And I know if I had not complied or if I objected to the illegality would have meant I'd have been fired from DECA.

Mind you, it was no small indecretion that went on at the time.  It was a systematic, illegal smuggling of proprietary specfications (box loads) that a premie was photocopying and smuggling out of Boeing International in Seattle and sending to us in Hileah, Florida for the B707.  Can you imagine that?  Completely illegal and high-risk, too.  This is something I will never forget and I feel awful about even being on the receiving end because I was told that I was handling illegally obtained specs for Maharaji and his jet and much worry was expressed by us grunt premies and the honchos as well, about what would happen if that premie was caught.

But, by his Grace (as we all said back then) that premie didn't get caught and Maharaji go his specs free of charge.

And the beat goes on...




 Date: 02/11/2004, 16:46:17
 Posted by: Marshall
 Original URL: Click here (However, the link may be stale.)
 Subject: The king is naked
The bottom line rationalisation of the premie towards the so called ex-premie is a form of, "You just didn't *get it*/don't *get it*". The premies genuinely think they have "something". Imagine the story of The Emperors New Clothes ok. - It's the end of the story, and the tailors have been discovered to be frauds, yet some die hard "clothes see- ers" still "see" the clothes - in explicit detail even. The King is really naked and yet to the deludes the clothes are still there! To them, no matter what they see the clothes. It's a miracle! - to them. Yikes, they're insane! - to the normal people who see that the king is naked.

 Date: 02/11/2004, 16:52:56
 Posted by: Jim
 Original URL: Click here (However, the link may be stale.)
 Subject: Yes but blessed are those who have eyes to see


I agree all the way.  However, several viral strains of magical thought actually encourage the "see-ers" to keep on seeing especially when there's nothing there.  You know, proof of a "pure heart", "sincere thirst", "good karma", "childlike trust", you name it. 

 Date: 02/11/2004, 18:19:34
 Posted by: NAR
 Original URL: Click here (However, the link may be stale.)
 Subject: When will they accept that it's just phosgenes?
You know Jim, we have had some really interesting discussions about this stuff in the past.

Yeah, brain chemistry (and altering same) is GREAT fun.... or it can be great fun. But the fact remains.... it's just altered brain chemistry, it's phosgenes, it's tasty snot and it's just a breath of fresh air..... that's it! Fun, why YES it is.... nothing more than that, though.

 Date: 02/11/2004, 18:54:40
 Posted by: NAR
 Original URL: Click here (However, the link may be stale.)
 Subject: And now, I can include you too, Cynthia
That was a huge admission. Sure you were duped just like the rest of us and for exactly the same reasons. The difference is, as a bit of an insider, you fully accept your participation and APOLOGIZE(D) for it (and stopped doing it..... that's important too).

Not that what you are talking about affected me personally, I still say that when a PAM-like person comes out and apologizes, even IF they really have nothing to apologize for really..... THAT is real love.... that really IS IT! Not that nebulous, ill-defined feeling you get when you breathe hard or watch your phosgenes..... you know what I mean?

You know.... I'm kinda glad I get to view you this way, due to what you just said..... it puts you in excellent company from my point of view!

Not that you need it or that it is really that important..... but I, if you did actually "offend me" during the conduct of your duties to M, forgive you and accept that apology. Same with Michael D and all the others that have come forward and done the same thing. The funny thing is, I'm really not that vindictive. If M would just "stop it" and apologize, I would forgive him and forget about it (like a bad dream). I know there are many who would have a hard time with that, but that is for their own reasons. I wasn't as badly abused as ashramies and those type folks. The closest I came to ashram living was boot camp. But still..... that would be all I would ask for, as an ex...... just a simple apology and stopping the fraud.

5 Brighter than 1000 suns as seen through night vision goggles
4 As bright as the lights on Maharaji's jet
3 As bright as a 60 watt light bulb
2 As bright as a pile of burning ghi on a swinging arti tray
1 As bright as the inner light as seen by the third eye

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